An Interview with Bob Ditter

Bob Ditter is a highly respected author and child and adolescent therapist in Boston who has worked extensively with camps and other youth-serving organizations throughout the United States. He recently wrote new editions of The Essential Pocket Guide for Day Camp Counselors, The Essential Pocket Guide for Resident Camp Counselors, and Skillful Interviewing for Finding Skillful Staff.

In this Q&A, Ditter shares real-life camp wisdom, offers advice for new and returning counselors, and explains why pockets (and pocket guides) are so important at camp.

What’s something new counselors stress about that literally does not matter?

What I think most new counselors stress about is fitting in. There are staff members who’ve been at camp for a long time, or who were there last year, or who grew up at camp, all of which can be intimidating for new counselors. Because when you come in as a new person, you may be wondering where you fit in or if you’ll be accepted. And the truth is everybody finds their place at camp — that’s really what camp’s all about. People who are introverts and extroverts, people who are the first to say something in an audience and those who are the last, all find their place at camp.

Think about cats and dogs. When you come home after being away for a long time, dogs run to the door, jump up and down, whimper, twirl around, wag their tails, and lick your face; they are very clear about their attachment to you and happy to see you. Cats, on the other hand, show up five minutes after you arrive, and then sit there and look at you for a while. Cats are like, Are you home? We hadn’t noticed you were gone. Then, on their own terms, cats come up to greet you. Kids and counselors are just like that — in the sense that some are very shy and wait, watch, and observe, and then they join in. Whereas others immediately want to do something and are energetic, and you have to slow them down. What I always say is cats find each other and dogs find each other, because everyone finds their place at camp.

What’s something new and returning counselors stress about that literally does not matter?

The big thing that both new and returning counselors stress about is: What do I do if the kids don’t listen to me? Here’s my answer: They’re not going to listen to you — that’s a given — so don’t stress or worry about it.

Here’s what I mean by that: Kids don’t listen to counselors just because you’re their counselor. There are a lot of counselors who come up through camp as campers, and they see the opportunity of being a counselor as having “arrived.” It’s their chance at last to be in control and in charge. Even counselors who haven’t been campers at the camp, but who come in as the adult in charge, often feel this way. But guess what? The kids couldn’t care less! They don’t care that you’ve arrived or that you have a position of status and authority. What kids look for and what matters to them is, are you willing to enter their world, and are you willing to get to know what matters to them?

The term I’ve used for years is money in the bank. Are you willing to make “deposits” in a camper’s bank account? Meaning, are you willing to truly listen to them — to find out what they’re interested in, what they’re curious about. Do they have pets at home? What do they miss about home? What kind of music do they like? What do they love about camp? What are they afraid about? Who are their closest friends? What did they come to camp to do? What sold them on this place?

The more counselors take the time to be with campers and be in their world, the more campers listen to them. After all, we don’t really control kids; we influence them. And the way we influence them is by gaining credibility, and the way we gain credibility is by entering their world — learning about them, caring about them, and showing them you care. I was once quoted as saying, “Kids learn when they listen, but they don’t listen unless they feel heard.”

What makes a counselor unforgettable — in a good way?

First, it’s the counselors who spend time with kids even when they don’t have to. It’s not the counselors who let campers get away with anything they want. That’s not their favorite. Their favorite are counselors who really genuinely like the campers, play with them, and engage with them; the kids can feel it. It’s not something you can fake.

The other thing that goes hand in hand with this that makes counselors unforgettable is when counselors are willing to be silly and make fools of themselves, but in a healthy way. Wake up kids in a silly costume. Stage some camp-sanctioned game at two o’clock in the morning on the soccer field. Or get into a skit with the kids. Kids love to see counselors play and be silly, because it invites campers to play and be silly — to be childlike but not childish. And there’s a difference. To be childish means to be petty and maybe even be a little bit sarcastic or hurtful or to do things that are a little bit edgy or break the rules. Whereas to be childlike is to be playful, to be inviting, to be silly and curious and interested in a way that invites other people in.

What’s the difference between being “in charge” and being a leader?

Being in charge is making your team support you. It’s proving yourself. Whereas being a leader is supporting, empowering, and coaching your team. It’s helping them as individuals and as a team to be the best they can possibly be. If you are in charge, you’re worried about control; you’re worried about looking good; you’re worried about people noticing you. Whereas if you are a leader, you really want your team to be successful — your co-counselors, your teammates. Or if you are head of a particular unit, you want all of your counselors to have good relationships with their kids. You want to problem-solve with them, but you want them to shine. You want them to have successes. And you’re not worried so much about your own status.

Young people often think I’ve got to do things to elevate my status, instead of elevating the status of their team members. What’s ironic about this is when you focus on the success of others and don’t worry about your own success, you end up looking good.

Faith Evans, a retired camp staff trainer from Colorado, used to say that really good leaders almost make themselves invisible. When the group they lead has accomplished what they came to do, the group will say, “We were successful, and we did it ourselves.”

Good leaders coach their staff, support their staff, and empower their staff, but they’re not the ones taking the credit or the glory.

If a counselor is overwhelmed and two seconds from quitting, what should they do first?

First thing to do is take a deep breath. Nobody ever made a really, really good decision when they were overwhelmed. Nobody.

We get flooded with emotion — I made a mistake. I shouldn’t be here. I hate this kid. I hate this camp. Whatever it is that you’re feeling. When this happens, the smart, thoughtful, wise part of your brain takes a nap and goes offline. And that’s true neurologically speaking. When we are activated, alarmed, or upset, the thinking part of our brain is overwhelmed and doesn’t help us think things through. So, the very first thing to do is teach yourself to be aware of that ahead of time and take a deep breath.

The next thing to do is step out. Turn to your co-counselor and say, “I need to take a breath.” Go talk it over with somebody — either somebody on the staff who you trust or your supervisor.

Putting things in perspective, taking a deep breath, and thinking things through are all functions of the front part of our brain. That’s the part of our brain that takes a nap when we’re upset, and making any kind of split-second decision in that moment is something that you’re likely going to regret. It’s better to take a breather and talk to somebody who can help put things in perspective.

How do you handle a camper who just doesn’t like you?

That’s a tough one. Is this a camper who has a hard time trusting? Is this a camper who’s afraid to get connected because they know they have to leave in two, three, or four weeks? Or is this a camper who is playing hard to get for different reasons?

Your co-counselors can be helpful here. Have a co-counselor say to the camper, “Hey, I noticed that you don’t seem to like so-and-so much. What’s up? Tell me about that.”

Step out, let co-counselors help, and give the camper a little bit of room.

Here’s the other thing that I think is really important: Campers like counselors who empower them. Show them that you trust them. Pick the camper who doesn’t like you to help you with something. Have them go get mail from the office, carry your clipboard, or help you in some way, so that the message you’re sending is clear: The way you feel about me doesn’t change the way that I’m going to treat you. When you give kids who may not like you or who misbehave a legitimate job and empower them, it can change the whole dynamic.

You wrote pocket guides for camp counselors. Why pocket guides?

What I’ve often asked staff members and counselors during orientation is, “Have you ever been in an argument with somebody or in a challenging situation, and you think of the perfect comeback three days after the argument is over?” And everyone agrees and hates when that happens. What I like to say is the reason you practice certain phrases and talk about certain concepts is so that when you’re in the heat of the moment with a particular camper or a group of campers, you have words that you can pull out of your back pocket! And, of course, I was using that figuratively, but then I thought to myself, Well, what if somebody literally could pull something out of their pocket? So, the pocket guides.

What happens when the counselor has no pockets? Is that bravery or chaos?

That’s inexperience! I say that because anybody who’s been to camp knows you need pockets. You gotta carry stuff, right? There are kids who will have stuff that they need to give you. They brought something from the cabin, and now they need to go on the climbing tower. “Will you hold this for me?” And before you know it, you’re holding stuff for 15 different campers. If you don’t have pockets, good luck, right? Of course, a backpack is just a whole bunch of pockets.

The more you plan ahead and have some ideas of phrases or words that you can use to help you when you’re in a certain situation — such as when a kid is homesick, or when a kid refuses to clean up, or when a kid is having an argument with another kid and you’re worried about it escalating — the better prepared you will be. In those situations, having phrases in the back of your mind, ready to go, and literally in your back pocket, can be really helpful, and it can give you a lot of confidence. It’s like we’re going to go out on this camping trip, and I know I’m going to have to build a campfire and cook some food, but we practiced it, so I’m ready. Well, if you can do it with those kinds of skills, you can do it with people skills too.

Any final thoughts for camp counselors?

The success of your campers is what matters. If you really pay attention to your campers and you show that you really care about them, they’ll rise to the occasion, respect you, and let you influence them. The same thing is true with your team.

The other thing is to have fun! I had this really interesting conversation with a counselor at a camp in Falling Creek, North Carolina, and he said to me, “Camp is making better people through fun.” I think it’s true with a little tweak. For me, camp is making better people through friends and fun. And that’s really what camp is and that’s my new motto. Camp is making better people through friends and fun. Camp is where you make lifelong memories for young people.

Photo courtesy of SPARK Day Camp, Middletown, NJ.

Interview conducted by Samantha Kundert, cofounder of Trellis Press, the publishing partner of the American Camp Association.